Q & A With Ahmed Shafik

Q What alliances do you think we should be seeking now, be it in Asian, African or Arab countries? A  Whoever I can join hands with. It doesn’t have to be neighboring countries. As long as there are cooperation opportunities with a country, I have to have elements of power with them that are built on economic ties and common interests so that this country can defend my interests and I can defend theirs. When one of the Nile Basin countries said they would build a dam on the Nile to generate electricity, people here reacted widely saying this is a red line that they shouldn’t cross and so on. But anyone who truly understands this situation knows that this reaction is pointless: We wouldn’t be able to do anything to stop them. Those countries that build dams without our approval and upset us wouldn’t have approved such a thing in the past. They wouldn’t be forced into not starting such projects, but they wouldn’t have planned one square meter of a project without informing Egypt first. I am not for one leader or the other, we are all pro-Egypt. But what does the fact that there are many, many people in their forties or fifties in Africa named Gamal Abdel Nasser tell you? This shows the Egyptian influence. We were defeated under Abdel Nasser’s rule, sure, but we had influence in Africa without war. We had influence through connections and relationships that made people around us and in Africa considerate of Egypt’s concerns willingly and lovingly. They named their sons after our leader. These are connections that we failed to pay attention to and so have now lost. The Nile Basin countries are obviously critical. This isn’t optional, it is our lives at stake. Our lives will be critically affected if we are not on good terms with them, and we have seen this in the past period. But going back to your question, the governments we could make alliances with are so many. They might be very far away, but there are many nations that we should tie our interests with. We should think of which products are important to that country that we can produce and what they can produce for us, and have open and direct lines with them. So you extend your interests with people so that they feel they are in need of you. You need to build good ties with as many countries as you can. It isn’t about your borders alone anymore. Every country has something you can use to build ties and interests with. Q What about Iran? How do you feel about reinstating ties in the near future? A Things must be studied on a case-by-case basis. What is the Iranian situation? It is in our general interest not to form new enemies, but it is also in our general interest not to allow meddling in our principles and beliefs. We should weigh all the factors and see: What would be the harm in having good relations with Iran at this point? How would it harm me to have the Iranian tourist come to Egypt and pay money and so on? Unless this tourist coming to Egypt will harm me in one way or another that will invite meddling in religious issues and the beliefs which the Egyptian people hold very dear. If I find that the benefits outweigh the interests, then I should re-open the doors and develop good relationships between the two countries. Q In other words, you are for reestablishing ties with Iran but it has to be studied to avoid possible problems? A  Exactly, as long as Egypt does not come out losing. But a good relationship needs to be reestablished with Iran, of course. Q Which aspects of our relationship with the United States would you keep and which would you change? A  I have publicly voiced my opinion several times on the recent issue we had with the US [over the trial of foreign NGO workers, including eight Americans], even before the crisis was resolved. My opinion is that Egyptian sovereignty over anything happening on Egyptian grounds is a concept that nobody should even come near. Americans themselves wouldn’t accept anything happening on their grounds that are not subject to American sovereignty, and we respect that. Q Okay, so there was mishandling and departure from the rules. What are the dimensions of the issue then?  A  I am not saying that this is what happened, but I will give you an example. If I see that something wrong was occurring, and I remained silent, looked the other way and didn’t try to stop it for the past 10 or 20 years, am I not part of this mistake? I am not saying this happened, I am just giving an example. But then I have made a mistake in that I overlooked what was happening and didn’t knock on doors early on and said what you’re doing is wrong. We should have sat around a table and discussed things, but first and foremost, Egypt’s sovereignty is sacrosanct. But we can still sit and discuss things, strongly noting, and I hope and believe — and I mean to say these two things consecutively — that we will not reach the point of no return with the Americans. We need to keep [an ongoing balanced relationship] between us that is never severed. This isn’t about the US aid that they might cut off. This US aid is only $1 billion. Our tourism ministry promised before to get this $1 billion in revenue when they were enthusiastic. But this money has other dimensions. It is a symbol of a diverse, complex relationship with the Americans that has been ongoing for 40 years. This long and strong relationship we have had with the US has developed mutual understanding and interests in various areas between the two countries that we can’t just cut off all of a sudden. The issue is complex and needs deliberate assessment and studying. And we might have found it a mistake on our parts to allow this to have gone on until now. The way it was resolved was not ideal. If the decision-makers had decided right away that they would resolve the issue that way, I wish they would not have let the situation escalate to this point. If we were intending to resolve it anyway, we could have looked for a solution that wouldn’t lead to both parties losing face. Q So you are for changing some aspects of our relationship with the US, then? A Change is always an option as long as you live, my dear. These are the dynamics of life. If we can improve, then we should keep improving until this improvement or change collides with our sovereignty, and this is where we would draw the line. Q Does this mean you do not oppose US aid as long as it doesn’t harm our sovereignty? A  Definitely. Q And Israel? How do you see the relationship between Egypt and Isreal? A As for Israel, we have clear demands: demands of fellow brothers and sisters. Israel is delaying giving rights [to the Palestinians], and we have a role to play. We should use our relationship and agreements with Israel and our fraternity with other parties to play a successful intermediary role between the two parties to reach a peaceful solution that will allow us all live in peace in the region. I think our relationship with Israel could be used as a positive tool to develop and strengthen a peaceful environment in the region that would reflect positively on our economy and society. Q So you don’t believe in severing economic ties with Israel? A  Why? Unless I am on the losing end of my deals with Israel, why would we cut economic ties with them? If I can achieve positive development, why wouldn’t I? Q Speaking of our borders, do you see an immediate threat to Egypt’s national security?  A  Yes. The region in general is congested, it isn’t quiet. Of course there is danger — the degree varies, but there are sources of danger. This needs a degree of awareness and not separating the possibility of these dangers from our daily lives. You want to live and achieve, but you always have to remember in the back of your mind that there is a problem here that might ignite in a second. The issue needs experience in [playing a public role] that depends on following and understanding the sources of total power. Q Are there certain areas that you have identified as immediate threats that you would have to tackle right away if you become president? A  We have to say that there is danger in Sinai, especially the part neighboring Israel and the Gaza strip. The danger doesn’t have to be coming from Israel, Hamas, Hamas’ guests or Africans who want to cross over to Israel through our borders and might ignite problems. I consider the danger coming from the diversity of clashing elements in this issue. So you might be minding your own business and suddenly find yourself in the middle of a clash between two parties that you aren’t part of, but it is still on your land or right next to you. We don’t only look at the hotspot that we are part of, but at any hotspot that might affect us. Q Various initiatives have been launched lately to develop education in Egypt but none have been effective. What policies do you think we should adopt to make effective and concrete changes in education? A We have been largely messing around lately without any real change or development. For several years now, every time we say we will develop our education system, we simply add or remove a year from school stages. We remove one year from primary stage and add it to preparatory, and then put it back into primary, and this year has been going back and forth between different stages of the education system. And we think we are developing our education. Of course we are not developing our education system at all. The proof is evident in the university graduates we have in Egypt who can’t even read or write. Compare this to the university education quality we had in the 1940s or 1950s. We have been flocking to universities, not to get real education, but to get certificates.   The choice criteria we use to decide on universities have become flawed. We are now used to seeing anyone who scores 90 or 100 percent [on the thannaweya amma graduation exam] going to medical or engineering schools and those who score 50 percent to science or law schools. But why should law or science schools be at the very bottom when those two schools are the two most important schools in developed countries? It is because we don’t understand that the mere fact that I scored 100 percent doesn’t qualify me to go to medical school if I don’t have the necessary skills for it. I could score 100 percent and have skills that would make me the strongest counselor in the world if I joined law school, but we don’t understand this in Egypt. We have been following the same line of thought for the past 60 years: We create something, worship it and become too afraid to change it. This is because we don’t have the courage to implement change from the roots. If I am treating a tree, I shouldn’t be focusing on the trunk when the roots are diseased. You should tackle the issues from the very roots and have the boldness to change, especially when you have role models to follow from other countries with strong education. See what other people are doing, go to those who have stronger education systems, take what suits you from them, bring those experiences and implement them here. Q Egypt’s political scene is taking on a decidedly religious characteristic. As president, how will you deal with the Islamists? A  What do you mean how will I deal with them? I am a Muslim, how am I dealing with Christians? The reason I am insisting on asking you this question is because this is exactly what ruined everything; giving this issue more value than it deserves. People — Muslim, Christians, Orthodox, Sufis and Salafis alike — should know their limits. There shouldn’t be bullying. Everyone falls under the same line and nobody is above it, because this country is for everyone. I don’t care how things are going right now — I would never accept this current situation. There is a line that nobody should cross. Orthodox, Catholic, Sufi, Salafi or a Brotherhood member — no voice is above the nation’s. There shouldn’t be bullying or giving oneself rights that I do not give to others. Q But there is bullying and power displays right now. Would you not agree? A Then this is wrong. La yaseh illa al-sahih [the right thing to do is what is right]. If we accept a wrong situation, it will eventually become the norm. No matter what, right is right. Win the elections and work as hard as you have worked to win, but to cross the line is not acceptable. The state’s hand should be firm because the state is what represents us all. I mean the state as in the government: A strong government is needed. When you get a secretariat to manage your work, they have to be strong and knowledgeable. I give the government their money to manage my work for me, and I expect them to be strong and know how to manage it. I am talking about what should be done, no matter what happens. Q For a period of time you were the prime minister, and your detractors say they have tried you in that position, so why should they try you again in presidency? A How could they have tried me for 10 days? Everyone has a vision. It is easy to say that I will feed people marrons glacés [candied chestnuts] morning, noon and night. You can say what you want, but how do you prove it? Your career and track record proves it. When you want to build a room in your house, you don’t get anyone off the street. You ask for his portfolio and experience, so you are confident that he will be able to do your work. But I can’t just get anyone off the streets who hasn’t done anything in his life except distribute some flyers about himself to become president of Egypt. Fine, but tell us what you will do — based on what you have done before. It is easy to learn a few pages by heart and say what people need to hear, but what have you done to prove you can come through for Egypt? Q The main demands of the revolution were liberties and a decent life for citizens, which means better education, better healthcare, better roads and services and so on. How do you intend to finance such projects? A Local funding is very likely. Many Egyptians have capital that is not being employed now due to fears and uncertainty about the future of the economy. As for the foreign funds, they have been badly affected by the circumstances. It is [only] natural that Egypt should be attractive for investments. The country has all the elements that can boost the economy and guarantee the success of projects and sufficient profits on investment, but what we lack right now is credibility. We need to regain the world’s confidence as soon as possible, confidence in our seriousness about and respect for our commitments and deals, seriousness toward protecting foreign capital as much as we protect Egyptian capital — we have to safeguard our partners. Q So do you think that regaining foreign investors’ confidence will generate the necessary finance for such projects? A  We will need both Egyptian and foreign investors. As soon as we restore credibility and with some efficient marketing and intelligent presentations about the potentials of doing business in Egypt, we will definitely attract funds and generate enormous income. Q Do you think it is necessary to increase the budget allocated to education and healthcare? A  Increasing the funding and prioritizing the expenditure sections need to be done as well. The increase of funds will come when we succeed in attracting investments. I am not saying that we have to wait until the industry and the overall economy gets back on track, but as soon as we restore credibility, we will certainly be able to secure the funding for such projects. Q When do you think we will restore this credibility? When we have a president? A  A number of elements: political, security and economic conditions all together. Q Do you think that the court rulings annulling some of the privatization deals might discourage investors?  A  We don’t want confusion. Our esteem and respect for the Egyptian judiciary [is one thing] and obstacles facing investments [are another]. What I want to say is that if those contracts were not right — and I know they weren’t right or fair — this is an administrative error and it has to be solved via administrative procedures to avoid putting the respect of the judiciary at stake. Mistakes of monitoring, follow up, lack of sufficient studies resulted in bad contracts. And if we go to court, there is no difference between citizens and foreigners; bad contracts have to be annulled. That’s why I want to look at this matter in a totally different way: Monitor and supervise the deals and revise them before we reach a point where we need to take them to court, underscoring the consequences for foreign investments. Q Do you plan to proceed with the privatization program or are you thinking of modifying it or perhaps discarding it altogether? A The private sector is a very important, effective and active segment of the Egyptian economy. Why is it, then, that citizens feel suspicious [of] the private sector? Simply because we don’t secure the rights of workers in the private sector. If we set up the organizational rules that secure workers of the private sector, we’ll find them very similar to the rights of workers in the public sector. In countries that are way ahead of us like the US and Europe, there is no difference between workers in the public and private sectors. Q But what about the privatization program that entails selling state-owned enterprises?  A  I don’t make general judgments. We should do what is in the best interest of the state, and deals are governed by a set of rules [which help us] decide whether to sell or not sell. Even if I could make a profit by selling 100 factories, I won’t sell them all; each case has to be studied independently. It depends on how strategic the product is, the demand for it and how much damage can be caused by a shortage of such a product in the markets in time of crisis and so on, and then we decide upon the safe percentage of state ownership of the production tools. How will I guarantee the quality of production? I believe that we have efficient leaders who can guarantee production equivalent to that of the private sector and maybe better. If I have doubts, I can import managers. The problem of the government was never in the ownership of production tools but rather the mismanagement of production tools. Q How are you planning on dealing with the demands of workers? A If we can’t come up with the right terms for relations between workers and employers, we can always reach out to other countries that have experience in this field, review different models and choose what is best for the Egyptian culture and nature. Workers’ rights are [primarily] human rights, justice and obtaining your rights without struggling to get them. In previous times, maybe we were not serious enough in handling such issues, but the government must undertake its role as a regulator of all relations and of all activities. Q With unemployment standing at 12%, how do you intend to tackle this problem, especially with the poor qualifications of human resources in Egypt? A  I’ll give you an example — and this idea is mine, yet I noticed it’s repeated in several presidential candidates’ programs. When we talk about huge projects, advanced companies decide to extend their investments to other countries, looking for low-cost labor, moderate weather, transport, proximity to [other] markets, and so on. But such investors want to start producing right away, and they want to have trained and efficient labor from day one. This means that the process of building and equipping the factories goes hand in hand with the process of setting up schools and training centers and the training of the required labor. This also means that workers, engineers and technicians are hired beforehand, particularly those assuming positions that need long periods of training. Q But what about the Egyptian investors? They don’t quite invest in training . . .  A  This is part of the role of the government as a regulator of relations between the various parties. The state has to guarantee consumer rights, so it is nothing but normal that it guarantees the caliber of workers who produce goods and commodities. The absence of the state’s role in the past years made such basic rights unheard of. So what I mean is that all these details can be handled within the rules regulating relations between employers and workers. This is as far as untrained labor is concerned, but the trained and efficient labor can be absorbed in several ways, such as increasing the number of work shifts, for instance, which will decrease the number of hours for workers and increase the number of workers employed. If we study thoroughly, care enough and get the right personnel, we will find fast solutions. Q What do you intend to do with urban slums, and how would you provide decent housing for the poor? A  I was known for being very strict when it came to illegal building. I used to demolish such construction right away, even when it came to property of the highest-ranking people. I used to follow up on these matters closely in the areas out by the airport and carry out the demolition right away, because it had to do with aviation routes and we couldn’t afford any disorder. However, six or seven months before the revolution, when the building violations problem of Ezbet El-Haggana near Heliopolis surfaced, when it was my turn to speak about it in Cabinet, I recommended that it not be abolished. Most colleagues were surprised then, but my reasoning was that it was not our right to demolish the buildings since we had left them for so long without sending any notifications or warnings. We let people build 14-storey apartment blocks, and then all of a sudden we decide to pull them down — this is ridiculous. I followed El-Haggana, which has been transformed over time into a zone of ‘castles’ and very high cement buildings with many problems and no infrastructure, yet we couldn’t abolish it. And this is not only the case of Ezbet El-Haggana but maybe thousands of such places around Cairo; you can clearly see them from the ring road. It was the fault of the state for not having prohibited them from building in the first place. Even if we demolish such neighborhoods, the agricultural land beneath is not reclaimable, which means it would be a double waste. This is the reality we have now. What we need to do is develop those random zones, change their appearance and the way they are utilized, make life easier there. Such simple places can even be attractive to tourism; Italy, for instance, is one of the most attractive countries for tourism, and people seek out the small alleys and simple basement restaurants. But such places are clean and decent with all the infrastructure and services, and that’s why tourists can visit it to enjoy the authentic style. Why don’t I turn Ezbet El-Haggana into a neighborhood styled on this Italian model? I reviewed a Canadian project providing a drainage system to an already existing residential area, causing minimal damage to the buildings. Even very advanced countries still have similar problems but they tackle them intelligently. As for housing, for those who need housing, this matter is a part of the development of public enterprise like any other public project. Q What are your plans for handling the budget deficit in the immediate future? A  There are sources of finance. For example, the Southern Nile Valley, Lake Nasser and the vast areas of lands around it. The specialists call this area the bread basket of Egypt. If well utilized, it can feed the entire country. Q But the budget deficit needs immediate solutions. Some people back foreign loans and grants, while others think that we should resort to solutions at home, such as canceling the subsidies given to mega-enterprises or channeling private funds into the state treasury. Your thoughts? A  Everything you mentioned is part of the solution. If we get loans at reasonable interest rates and utilize them well, the benefit would surpass the interest we’re paying. Given these conditions, it would be ridiculous if we don’t seek foreign loans; this is how things are done all over the world. If you want to buy a cab and you have the needed capital, you shouldn’t be using this capital to buy the cab, instead you should get a loan and the profit that the cab generates will pay off the installments and the interest. So it is not wrong to take loans, but it is wrong not to study the matter well. ‘Blind borrowing’ that dedicates the funds to the purchase of food doesn’t help me to pay back the loan. As for the private funds, making use of them is also possible. We can study the best way to utilize them, whether by handing them over to the treasury or supervising the funds, monitoring the aspects of expen diture then forming deals with the entities that own them, determine the right aspects of expenditure and deduct a percentage for the state treasury. Nothing is totally wrong or totally right; compromises can be made. Any solution that is in the best interest of people and generates income in dollars or Egyptian pounds for the treasury is a valid project.   Q The industrial strategy of the former regime entailed building new factories and neglecting the old state-owned ones. Some people saw this as serving certain classes and not all Egyptians. Tell us about your vision for the industrial sector, and if you would change this strategy?  A  This is a result of a negative aspect of the Egyptian culture: When we buy something new, we throw away the old stuff. This concept is totally wrong. As long as there are profits generated by the old project, we should develop it, and both the old and new can work side by side. We should never ‘throw it away’ unless the benefit from getting rid of the project is higher than the benefit of investment. Q In your program, are you putting forward any national megaprojects that can boost the economy?  A  There are numerous national megaprojects; this is an inexhaustible vessel, so to speak. I might not have something in mind right now, but I had suggested a project for the Suez Canal that everyone now is talking about. I know how I will carry it out on the very first day of my term if I become president. I plan to transform the area of the Suez Canal into the best and biggest free zone for industry in the world. It has all the right ingredients: good weather, cheap labor, flat land, desert, agriculture — it has it all, in addition to ships from all over the world crossing 24/7. These elements make it more than exemplar; it is incredible in terms of potential. Nowadays advanced countries extend their industries to other countries where labor is cheaper and there are possibilities of reaching new markets. Such industries went to China for its cheap labor and organizational capacities, and now international designer brands are made in China, Malaysia, Indonesia, and so on, not in its country of origin. And where do we stand? We are closer to such countries and have distribution potential, we have all the elements I previously mentioned but unfortunately we have not keen on attracting those foreign industries.